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Question: What are your thoughts on acupuncture and chinese medicine?

(Posted by: Amanda on 2010-02-09 23:01:31)

Do you really suppose that ancient philosophy can succeed modern science? Reasons?

Posted by: Ron on 2010-02-10, 00:03:00

Modern Chinese medicine is on a par with western medicine, but as far as acupuncture is concerned it's medieval thinking. Many people believe that because it's 'eastern' and it's thousands of years old there must be something in it, nonsense, the flat earth society has been around for longer and it still flourishes. Acupuncture does work with SOME people by the placebo effect, this is a really powerful effect made all the stronger by all the time and attention that an acupuncturist spends with clients, also the mystical charts and the twiddling of needles also adds greatly to this effect. Acupunture again works on SOME people with vague symptoms like lower back pain, symptoms that are also 'cured' by homoeopathy, laying on of hands, crystal power etc. etc. Trials where 'dummy needles' and/ or random acupunture sites fail to show any significant improvement for back pain over placebo or 'real' acupunture. There is some ancedotal evidence of operations carried out using acupuncture as an anaesthetic, but it's a fact that one person in 10,000 die just from the effects of the anaesthetic alone, do you think that we would still be using anaesthetics if sticking pins in you had the same effect? The body does run on electrical impulses, but none can be detected along the so called energy lines, while nerve impulses from the brain can, it's just the sort of thinking that because our body is about 60% water and the moon effects tides, therefore the moon must affect our bodies. James Randi is just waiting to be challenged for his $1,000,000 by certified acupunturists, none have taken him up, homoeopathy under the sponsorship of the TV program 'Horizon' took him up and failed miserably. With regards to herbs, it's absolutley true that many very important medicines derive from herbs, they are then purified, tried and tested just as extensively as any other product, if they pass, they are granted licences to be prescribed by qualified doctors and they become 'medicines', if they fail or are not tested they remain as 'herbs', sold by any market trader, Chinese or not. EDIT: treat the cause, are you telling us that if you were involved in a traffic accident you would be prepared to have your broken bones repaired under acupuncture anaesthesia? if your wounds were so badly infected would you refuse antibiotics in favour of homoeopathy or cranberry juice? you have never answered my querie as to why if you'r such a strong believer in this nonsense why you haven't taken up Randi's challenge? as Randi himself says "put up or shut up " his quote not mine. EDIT2: Oops! it looks like Treat the cause has had his answer removed, not before time.

Posted by: janie on 2010-02-10, 00:02:44

Although I do not know a lot about it, I remember once reading a chapter in a book when years ago, a team of doctors went to observe acupuncture and them saying how amazed they were to see people undergoing all kinds of surgeries with on by using acupuncture needles and the patient experiencing no pain. Shocked, they brought this knowledge to the USA medical community. Like herbs in this country, the accumulated knowledge of centuries and in this case thousands of years, finds that many of the folk medicine traditionally used for this or that medical condition have been backed up in modern tests. For example, the Hoxsey formula that the AMA sued Hoxsey over in the 30s and that the US courts declared did, in fact, cure cancer after studying the data and medical records of many patients who arrived alive and records in hand long after their doctors said they would die, was the first person ever to win a case against the AMA. In fact, the person suing him, Morris Wishbone, was the head of the AMA and had tried to buy the formula from Hoxsey presumably because it worked. But when Hoxsey refused to sell it to them when they would not agree to honor his father's deathbed wish of the old family formula and not charge for those too poor to pay for it, Fishbein vowed to ruin him. The formula was originally discovered when his great grandfather put a horse dying of cancer to pasture and noticed the horse eating things not normally part of its diet and subsequently healing itself. He then went on to save other horses with cancer. His grandfather then first tried it on humans. Of the 17 herbs in the formula, 16 were subsequently found to have anti-cancer/ tumor properties. So I do think many of their herbs and uses likely have validity. Also consider that Asian tend to be some of the smartest people on the planet. Why couldn't a lot of what they use be valid? Since the body is electrical, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that energy meridians could exist. Something was going on if they put the needles in the right location and something as painful as surgery could be performed on regular people without anything else. Also other cultures believe in this though they call it chi, prana etc, but it is essentially the same philosophy with different names. One tends to look at the last century and think those prior to us were primitive in their knowledge; however, when I studied ancient philosophy, I was stunned with how brilliant some of these very ancient people were and the philosophies they came up with. One even was quite similar to everything being composed of atoms and actually being in motion though we cannot detect it with the naked eye. How they came up with these and the many subjects they studied amazed me as before then, I had not thought them as being that smart.that smart. We tend to think science is all there is but we are always making new discoveries. Perhaps someday we will be thought of as the ignorant ancients. A few of the principles of science are observation and hypothesis and experimentation and this is likely how they learned things as far as what herbs helps what disease or other methods. In some ways, it likely was a bit of science just like we all use when we try things on ourselves and see if they work or don't work. There are smart people of every generation and given their pristine environments and use mainly of whole, fresh and essentially organic food, they may even have been smarter than us due to this healthy diets affect on the brain and its formation. They did not maybe have our technology, but they thought a lot and learned over many centuries of trial and error.All knowledge is built on previous knowledge and it is said, there is nothing new under the sun It is arrogant to think we know everything as the smartest men that ever lived did not know everything nor were they always right. We are blessed to live in this generation where we can study the traditional folk uses for a large variety of plants and herbs and have the technology to study them in ways that they did not and also to spread knowledge widely via the internet. A few of the drawbacks are profit is involved rather than service to mankind and that many herbs grown nowadays are of poor quality with few potent chemicals and are mostly used in a poorly absorbed form (capsules) making them not that effective. Making your own herbal products fresh from the fields, woods and meadows would be much more effective and full of the phytochemicals/ nutrients that cure and prevent disease. One should not try to use Chinese medicine(herbs) in the US if possible as remember as Dr Christopher said to "live under our own fig tree " and eat the herbs/ plants going in our area and climate as these are best for the people in that area. Generally each classification of herbs (anti-biotic/ diaphoretic/ tonic/ anti-emetic/ anti-spasmodic and so forth) are found in a wide number of different plants and can be substituted one for another so that generally we can find local plants/ herbs for each need/ use and not need to use Chinese herbs grown halfway around the world.

Posted by: dave on 2010-02-10, 02:33:31

There's no point in philosophising about this. Modern statistical analysis shows that acupuncture and traditional chinese medicine have no effect above placebo. Sometimes, naive attempts by someone trying to explain how something works reveals their level of ignorance about the subject. If you see someone flailing around in their attempt at explaining something with anecdotes, chances are they are clueless and guessing.

Posted by: wmayers99 on 2010-02-10, 05:25:41

Just because an idea has been around for ages does not mean that idea is valid. Is the earth flat? Do doctors still treat people for illness by bleeding them? How about cupping? That was done for ages. Or purging? That, too, was done for ages and ages. There were those who thought you could tell criminals just by looking at their faces. Others thought you could tell a person's future by feeling the bumps on their heads or looking at the lines on the palms of their hands. Are there really sea monsters? Does the stork bring babies? All these are examples of ideas that once were accepted virtually everywhere, but which are now derided as quackery. Acupuncture is another example of quackery, despite that not a few people swear by it. Chinese medicine, as opposed to ayurvedic medicine, does have some validity because some of the herbal preparations involved in Chinese medicine do have real medicinal value. The trick is determining which are medically valuable and which are not...and many herbal preparations are not only useless, far too many are actually toxic. I would suggest visiting a board-certified physician if you're feeling ill.

Posted by: Sean Barkes on 2010-02-10, 14:26:27

Well, the advantage of something so ancient is that it has been tried and tested for a long period of time. We know that the real test of the safety of drugs starts when the drug is already on the market. The safety record of acupuncture and Chinese Medicine is unparalelled by modern medicine. In China, the best of both are used hand in hand. One has to think that China is the fastest growing industrial nation on earth with 1.2 billion people investing billions of dollars in specialist Chinese Medical hospitals. Medicine has to be practical, effective and cost-effective. Necessity is the mother of invention. Of course, the workings of Chinese medicine and acupuncture can be explained using scientific methods. Its just a different way of apppreciating the same thing. See the works of Becker and Oshman. Great modern take on energy medicine. Both respected scientists. Scroll down to research in the link. Hope this helps :)

Posted by: kowana7cloud on 2010-02-11, 06:02:42

I read some where only 30% work some time, not all the time. Depend individual and the person who perform the acupuncture, if the needle in the right places or not. I met lots people been to a acupuncture, few say it work only when the needles in places, once u leave the pain comes back.Then many said its waste of money. I know a few after read a book,and hang up a sign, this was before AMA accepted acupuncture. They didn't last long. This trade is same as western doctors. Just like take ur car in a mechanic, good or bad mechanic u don't know. and ripping u off as much as he can. U ask them question, they won't tell u, even they know

Posted by: Curious George, C.Ac on 2010-02-11, 18:45:15

I absolutely do not believe Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) supplants Modern Medicine. It does however have its place within a complementary, and integrative approach that works beside standard medical approaches of today. TCM has stood the test of time, and is practiced across the world. It is not just a folk medicine practice, but a highly developed system of health care that helps a great number of people.